Episode 24

Treat Your Humans Like Humans

Published on: 3rd October, 2024

Stephanie is joined by Jessica Gurley, a superstar Exec Recruiter from ThinkingAhead’s Life Sciences division, who dives into using technology to actually further humanize your professional interactions, the hugely important act of repetition, and just in time for Halloween, why so many clients these days are getting ghosted. Ooooo, scary.

Discover what sets ThinkingAhead apart, hear stories from recruiters, and browse opportunities by clicking here.

Transcript
Stephanie Maas:

Welcome to The Talent Trade. I am your host,

Stephanie Maas:

Stephanie Maas, partner with ThinkingAhead Executive Search.

Stephanie Maas:

Today I am super excited to have one of ThinkingAhead's greats

Stephanie Maas:

from the life sciences practice with us, Jessica Gurley, welcome

Stephanie Maas:

Jessica.

Jessica Gurley:

Thank you. I'm happy to be here.

Unknown:

Yay. So Jessica recruits in our life sciences

Unknown:

practice a life changing niche. Jessica, what I'd love to do is

Unknown:

turn it over to you, do a little bit more of an introduction of

Unknown:

yourself and your niche, and then we'll talk about how you as

Unknown:

a recruiter in that space stand out from the crowd?

Jessica Gurley:

Great. So a quick definition of Life

Jessica Gurley:

Sciences is anything from pharmaceutical companies, device

Jessica Gurley:

companies, biotech diagnostics, so anything that you would

Jessica Gurley:

consume from a health perspective is considered Life

Jessica Gurley:

Sciences. Actually, even veterinary stuff is considered

Jessica Gurley:

Life Sciences. My specific niches are more what we would

Jessica Gurley:

refer to as the commercial side of the business. So that would

Jessica Gurley:

be sales. So the sales reps that go into the office, marketing

Jessica Gurley:

the people behind the scenes, creating the specific stories,

Jessica Gurley:

access, health economics, which helps and supports access, being

Jessica Gurley:

able to approach insurance companies the government to make

Jessica Gurley:

cases on why access should be allowed for this. They do

Jessica Gurley:

economic models and spreadsheets and then additionally

Jessica Gurley:

reimbursement. So after you get a prescription or something

Jessica Gurley:

given to you by your doctor, the rebates, the rewards, the

Jessica Gurley:

coding, all of those things, reimbursement is something else

Jessica Gurley:

that I recruit in.

Unknown:

Sounds super complicated, but good. Okay, so

Unknown:

you have been in this niche. You rule the roost. Tell us, what do

Unknown:

you do different than other recruiters in your space, other

Unknown:

recruiters, period. How do you stand out from the crowd?

Jessica Gurley:

One of the first things I do, no matter what the

Jessica Gurley:

situation is, I don't come out at a potential client or a

Jessica Gurley:

candidate pitching something at them, whether it be my services

Jessica Gurley:

or the job that I'm currently working on. I work and

Jessica Gurley:

intentionally position myself as wanting to get to know my

Jessica Gurley:

candidate. I always do a little pre ramble or preface of I don't

Jessica Gurley:

know what other recruiters you've worked with, but I'm not

Jessica Gurley:

going to come out here and pitch at you. That's not my style. I

Jessica Gurley:

would rather take a few minutes to learn about you, especially

Jessica Gurley:

from the candidate side, with the client side, I might

Jessica Gurley:

approach it a little bit differently. We'll say, Hey,

Jessica Gurley:

thank you so much for taking this call. What would you like

Jessica Gurley:

to discuss first? Would you like to discuss your needs or your

Jessica Gurley:

organization or things that I should know about you? Or would

Jessica Gurley:

you like to talk of what thinking ahead can do? I always

Jessica Gurley:

put the ball in their court and try to set up a conversation

Jessica Gurley:

about them first, or what makes sense for them to talk about and

Jessica Gurley:

get out first. I just think it disarms them, and it really

Jessica Gurley:

makes me seem because I am more invested in them as either a

Jessica Gurley:

person or an organization, versus my own agenda and what

Jessica Gurley:

I'm trying to accomplish. One of the other things that I do, that

Jessica Gurley:

I hear as the biggest complaint, and that I'm so thankful that

Jessica Gurley:

thinking ahead trains on in our culture is follow through. I

Jessica Gurley:

actually was talking to a COO yesterday, and she was telling

Jessica Gurley:

me about some of her experiences, or some of her, you

Jessica Gurley:

know, high level colleagues experiences on how

Jessica Gurley:

unprofessional it is to coast candidates. And she would say,

Jessica Gurley:

even at C suite level recruiters that are working with CEOs coo

Jessica Gurley:

CFOs, they're getting ghosted even after like two interviews,

Jessica Gurley:

and not hearing back from the recruiter on their status of

Jessica Gurley:

their the progress and the interview process. And she was

Jessica Gurley:

saying it is so bad out there. It's wild that recruiters would

Jessica Gurley:

even consider that being something ethical to do or

Jessica Gurley:

something that's okay to do. It's interesting to hear that,

Jessica Gurley:

because that would never have been something that I thought

Jessica Gurley:

was okay. I'm happy that thinking ahead has trained and

Jessica Gurley:

is really adamant about the way that we conduct ourselves in the

Jessica Gurley:

marketplace. And you know, the truth of it is we are paid to

Jessica Gurley:

deliver good news and we are paid to deliver bad news. That's

Jessica Gurley:

our job is to coach people through the ups and the downs.

Jessica Gurley:

Think about any job that you've had. It can be scary. It can be

Jessica Gurley:

intimidating, depending on where you are in your life or where

Jessica Gurley:

you are in your career. Our job is to help support them. And if

Jessica Gurley:

you ghost them, that only looks bad on you, and that leaves them

Jessica Gurley:

kind of feeling like, Well, did I do something? You know, it's

Jessica Gurley:

really about supporting that person through the process from

Jessica Gurley:

the very beginning to either an offer acceptance or through the

Jessica Gurley:

middle, where it's like, hey, they are going to move forward

Jessica Gurley:

with another candidate, and these are the reasons why. So

Jessica Gurley:

ghosting is something that I hear very, very, very frequently

Jessica Gurley:

as the number one issue that people have with recruiters. So

Jessica Gurley:

follow through. Are important. Consistency, I would say, is the

Jessica Gurley:

other piece of how I work and stand out. And the longer I've

Jessica Gurley:

been doing this, the more I hear this feedback. You know,

Jessica Gurley:

repetition really works. The way that thinking ahead sets up

Jessica Gurley:

culture with the training, the way that we operate in the

Jessica Gurley:

marketplace and our business model is repetition. I did some

Jessica Gurley:

Googling and, you know, just backed up some of the things

Jessica Gurley:

that we were taught that the brain needs five to seven times

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before it can transition from a short term to a long term

Jessica Gurley:

memory. So it's really important that when you're first starting

Jessica Gurley:

to reach out to somebody, that you're doing it consistently,

Jessica Gurley:

and you're doing it in a pattern that will help them remember

Jessica Gurley:

you? I've had people, after a year of me calling on them and

Jessica Gurley:

just doing this pattern, say you've been so persistent, you

Jessica Gurley:

haven't given up. Your name is recognizable to me now, and I'm

Jessica Gurley:

reaching out to you to talk about this specific thing. The

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other thing once you have that initial conversation is keeping

Jessica Gurley:

in touch with them quarterly at a minimum, but typically it is

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best to come to an agreement on what that should look like. And

Jessica Gurley:

I always make sure that I ask that, is it okay that we stay in

Jessica Gurley:

touch every three months, or does it need to be more

Jessica Gurley:

frequent? Does it need to be less frequent and getting that

Jessica Gurley:

buy in on what the consistency would look like, and then again,

Jessica Gurley:

following through and doing it, and even if it's just as simple

Jessica Gurley:

as a message of, we haven't talked in three months like we

Jessica Gurley:

talked about, I am holding up my part of the bargain. I'm giving

Jessica Gurley:

you a call being intentional. And as I continue to do this

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process again, received so much positive feedback about how

Jessica Gurley:

effective this is. I was also talking with another C suite

Jessica Gurley:

individual, and she was telling me her product just got FDA

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approval, which means it can go from a clinical stage into the

Jessica Gurley:

FDA to then be able to be released to the public. And she

Jessica Gurley:

said that she was so agitated that recruiters came out of the

Jessica Gurley:

woodwork to reach out to her about something very

Jessica Gurley:

transactional. And she was like, why would I even consider a

Jessica Gurley:

relationship with them when they weren't previously consistent?

Jessica Gurley:

She's like, you call me, you know, very consistently. But she

Jessica Gurley:

was like, you're one of the only recruiters that I actually pick

Jessica Gurley:

up, because you've been consistent through the downs.

Jessica Gurley:

And she just, I mean, flat out, said, annoys me when random

Jessica Gurley:

recruiters I've talked to once come out of the woodwork when

Jessica Gurley:

they see an announcement about something that's just not a good

Jessica Gurley:

way to build ongoing relationships and trust,

Jessica Gurley:

especially with people in this industry that get bombarded with

Jessica Gurley:

recruiters. And Life Sciences is a very saturated market with

Jessica Gurley:

recruiters.

Unknown:

It sounds like one of your cornerstones for standing

Unknown:

apart from the crowd is how you treat people. It's about them,

Unknown:

not about you. You do follow through. You do what you say

Unknown:

you're going to do. There's consistency. Sounds like you

Unknown:

bring a lot of empathy to your practice, and just have made a

Unknown:

practice of treating people well.

Jessica Gurley:

Oh, thank you. That's very sweet. I mean, I try

Jessica Gurley:

to treat people like people. I mean, that's why I got into this

Jessica Gurley:

business, was because I wanted to feel very emotionally

Jessica Gurley:

connected to the thing that I was doing every day. And like I

Jessica Gurley:

took one of those quizzes about what you should do with your

Jessica Gurley:

life at like, 38 and nurturing and hospitality and care came up

Jessica Gurley:

at the very top of my skill set. So one of the reasons that

Jessica Gurley:

attracted me to recruiting was the long, ongoing relationships

Jessica Gurley:

and getting to the point where you're talking about not only

Jessica Gurley:

business related things, but very personal things. Like,

Jessica Gurley:

people know how old my children are. They know what grade

Jessica Gurley:

they're going into. You know, it's building these more in

Jessica Gurley:

depth things than just, hey, this drug is launching. Hey,

Jessica Gurley:

you're expanding. How can I work with you to put money in my

Jessica Gurley:

pocket? Yeah, I really love that part of the business, and I say

Jessica Gurley:

that to people when I'm getting to know them as I love to hear

Jessica Gurley:

people's stories. What made you get into this? What made you

Jessica Gurley:

pick the transitions that you did? So it's always specifically

Jessica Gurley:

interesting to hear one of those more niche things and like, how

Jessica Gurley:

did you fall into that? Or what interests you about it? Well,

Jessica Gurley:

tell me about what made you want to do this and starting the

Jessica Gurley:

conversation out that way. So yeah, I mean, I would would say,

Jessica Gurley:

I do pride myself on being a very relational person and

Jessica Gurley:

finding a lot of joy in that day in and day out.

Unknown:

And that definitely makes you stand out. Now, what I

Unknown:

think is super fascinating about you is you have this high human

Unknown:

touch, Relational Approach, and yet you become one of the firm's

Unknown:

kind of gurus, innovators of this technological approach to

Unknown:

doing what you do.

Jessica Gurley:

I really lean into technology. You know, to

Jessica Gurley:

learn things. I listen to audiobooks, I listen to

Jessica Gurley:

podcasts, I watch a lot of documentaries. That's my

Jessica Gurley:

learning style, is audio and visual. I have a harder time.

Jessica Gurley:

I'm a slightly dyslexic, and I have a harder time reading and

Jessica Gurley:

comprehending information that way. So I lean in technology in

Jessica Gurley:

those ways, because I see the better. Fits of it. So some of

Jessica Gurley:

the things that help me, and I feel like can bring a more

Jessica Gurley:

differentiating fact, where other recruiters don't do it,

Jessica Gurley:

but then it can either cut down on time, or it can help

Jessica Gurley:

personalize you. So technology can be your friend if you use it

Jessica Gurley:

effectively. Too much of anything is bad, but chatgpt

Jessica Gurley:

helps me when I need it to just be smoother and more concise

Jessica Gurley:

with my messaging, especially the end of the day, when my

Jessica Gurley:

brain is really tired and I'm trying to write a message and

Jessica Gurley:

it's just these ongoing I have a really hard time with run on

Jessica Gurley:

sentences. That's always been an issue of mine since I was a

Jessica Gurley:

small child, I would get dinged constantly for that. And so I

Jessica Gurley:

will put ideas down in my crazy long run on sentences and put

Jessica Gurley:

them in a chat GPT when I just don't have any more brain power.

Jessica Gurley:

And I usually say, make it smoother, more concise and more

Jessica Gurley:

professional, and it will help me funnel my thoughts into a way

Jessica Gurley:

that are just more readable. Secondly, I really struggled

Jessica Gurley:

with this job being very phone based, because I had always done

Jessica Gurley:

outside sales, and I always attribute it my sales success,

Jessica Gurley:

true or not. Maybe it's my own insecurities, but from the fact

Jessica Gurley:

that people could see me and inner interact with me, see my

Jessica Gurley:

energy, see my hand motions, just see my smile and just my

Jessica Gurley:

energy of who I am. So a phone job, at some level, really

Jessica Gurley:

intimidated me, because I'm like, they're not getting to

Jessica Gurley:

know me. They're not seeing me. They're not seeing the

Jessica Gurley:

enthusiasm that I'm bringing. They're not seeing my the

Jessica Gurley:

nuances of how I interact with someone. So I use LinkedIn as a

Jessica Gurley:

way to not only discuss personal things, where I'll post about my

Jessica Gurley:

postpartum depression or my stepdaughter in Alabama, or my

Jessica Gurley:

son or my other, you know, my family or whatever. But I also

Jessica Gurley:

use it as professional engagement, because it gives me

Jessica Gurley:

a more holistic image, I guess, in the marketplace is the best

Jessica Gurley:

way to put it or brand, where I just don't go on and talk about,

Jessica Gurley:

hey, I have this job listing. Hey, I have this job listing.

Jessica Gurley:

Hey, I have this job listing. You know, I think with

Jessica Gurley:

technology, it's it can be a two edged sword, where you do feel

Jessica Gurley:

more distance because it's not as personal, but you can use

Jessica Gurley:

that tools, those tools, to make yourself a more holistic person,

Jessica Gurley:

to somebody. The other thing that I do to cut down on time is

Jessica Gurley:

I do use a bookings link, but I do it, I feel like in an

Jessica Gurley:

appropriate manner where it still is very personalized. I

Jessica Gurley:

don't just say book here. It's like I might have an engagement

Jessica Gurley:

through LinkedIn or through a phone call, and I'll say, Hey,

Jessica Gurley:

I'm gonna send you an email, the fastest way for both of us to do

Jessica Gurley:

this, instead of going back and forth 100 times or missing it is

Jessica Gurley:

I'm going to send you an email, click the red link and pick a

Jessica Gurley:

time for us to connect like I don't do it as just shoving it

Jessica Gurley:

out into the marketplace and being super impersonal about it.

Jessica Gurley:

I use it as a personal way to help streamline interactions.

Jessica Gurley:

And I don't do it all the time. It really depends on the

Jessica Gurley:

scenario, and I feel like I use it to my advantage when I think

Jessica Gurley:

it's necessary, and then sometimes I don't when I feel

Jessica Gurley:

like it makes it more impersonal. It just is a kind of

Jessica Gurley:

a toss up and a gut reaction. The last thing that I do, that I

Jessica Gurley:

have found to be very effective, is using video marketing

Jessica Gurley:

campaigns to engage with potential candidates. And the

Jessica Gurley:

reason that I really leaned into this was because it made sense

Jessica Gurley:

to me again. I learned through video content. I learned through

Jessica Gurley:

documentaries, through little short snippets on Instagram or

Jessica Gurley:

reels or whatever, to learn about a specific topic in a very

Jessica Gurley:

short amount of time to then retain it. And when the idea

Jessica Gurley:

came up, I was like, Oh, I instantly connect to this, which

Jessica Gurley:

probably has fed into my success, because I believe in

Jessica Gurley:

how it can work and impact someone. So one of the things

Jessica Gurley:

that I do is, when I do have a search, I sit and put together a

Jessica Gurley:

minute to a minute and a half overview of what the position

Jessica Gurley:

is, why it's an exciting company, the benefits of the

Jessica Gurley:

company or the job, and then just some list out items of

Jessica Gurley:

qualifications and who the company is looking For, and if

Jessica Gurley:

you feel like you're the right fit, feel free to reach out to

Jessica Gurley:

me or pass it on to somebody else. And the responses that

Jessica Gurley:

I've gotten from candidates has been so overwhelmingly positive,

Jessica Gurley:

where they say things like, I wouldn't have reached out to

Jessica Gurley:

you. It made it more intriguing. It made me feel more comfortable

Jessica Gurley:

calling you. It excited me about the opportunity, and that

Jessica Gurley:

engagement and more initial buy in makes it having a more easier

Jessica Gurley:

conversation on the back end, about getting to know them, and

Jessica Gurley:

then additionally talking about because they have, like, a

Jessica Gurley:

little preview of what what it is that they're engaging with.

Jessica Gurley:

Additionally, I've taken that concept and talked to hiring

Jessica Gurley:

manager. About it, and they really understand it, and it's

Jessica Gurley:

so different than any of the other recruiters that they have

Jessica Gurley:

engaged with where they're like, Oh, that makes tons of sense,

Jessica Gurley:

because everyone kind of understands that we live in a

Jessica Gurley:

very add space. Now, with our culture, you have someone's

Jessica Gurley:

attention for a minute, a minute and a half, and then you use

Jessica Gurley:

them. So, you know, videos made up 82% of all internet traffic

Jessica Gurley:

in 2022 over 2.6 billion people around the world use YouTube

Jessica Gurley:

every month, and viewers retain 95% of messages when watching it

Jessica Gurley:

on video, versus 10% through text. And I've seen that tenfold

Jessica Gurley:

in my efforts this year with recruiting, it's just the way

Jessica Gurley:

that our society learns. So why not utilize it in a way to

Jessica Gurley:

again, personalize yourself and stand out where people know my

Jessica Gurley:

name, they know my voice, they know my face. I'm not just a

Jessica Gurley:

flat screen to them, I'm three dimensional. And then pull a lot

Jessica Gurley:

of energy behind what I'm talking about, and they can see

Jessica Gurley:

the enthusiasm that I have about the opportunity and transfer it

Jessica Gurley:

to them. Dude, that's awesome. I really feel like you bring this

Jessica Gurley:

ying and yang of being incredibly focused on the human,

Jessica Gurley:

the individual, and yet, at the same time, what we just heard

Jessica Gurley:

was a tremendous amount of relying on technology for

Jessica Gurley:

efficiencies and to get to folks you wouldn't otherwise get to,

Jessica Gurley:

to get to the human Yeah, so I was a sales rep. I did call on

Jessica Gurley:

these people, and I did have interactions with the people

Jessica Gurley:

that I recruit. And I understand how that train works together,

Jessica Gurley:

so I understand if the economic story doesn't work, then you can

Jessica Gurley:

have access. If you can have access, then you have a more

Jessica Gurley:

challenging marketing story. If you have a challenging marketing

Jessica Gurley:

story, the sales rep can't do their job. So because of my

Jessica Gurley:

experience in life sciences, with some of the positions I

Jessica Gurley:

had, it's really easy for me to pull through that narrative and

Jessica Gurley:

understand the nuances of those five buckets to be super

Jessica Gurley:

effective, not only in in focus, but in how everyone collaborates

Jessica Gurley:

together, and then at the end of the day, how those things help

Jessica Gurley:

reach patients, to help have a better quality of life, or even

Jessica Gurley:

save their life. So I think that previous experience before

Jessica Gurley:

becoming a recruiter in this space also makes me stand out,

Jessica Gurley:

because I can have very transparent conversations with

Jessica Gurley:

Hey, when I was a rep, I understood that access I

Jessica Gurley:

couldn't do my job without it, and I understand that you can't

Jessica Gurley:

make good access stories if you don't have the right economic

Jessica Gurley:

models. And if you don't have the right economic models, it's

Jessica Gurley:

because the clinical trials are missing something. So it is this

Jessica Gurley:

domino effect that I can very confidently speak to across

Jessica Gurley:

those five or six areas, and especially within marketing and

Jessica Gurley:

sales. Being a sales rep, it's given me a lot of confidence and

Jessica Gurley:

buy in and security and like the circle of trust, because I've

Jessica Gurley:

been those people, and that just immediately takes down walls

Jessica Gurley:

with the marketing people. The same thing, you know, I

Jessica Gurley:

understand what their work is. I understand their interactions

Jessica Gurley:

with sales people. I feel like that also helps me stand out and

Jessica Gurley:

give me an edge against other life science recruiters.

Unknown:

So folks, couple key takeaways here, treat your

Unknown:

humans like humans. Use technology to give you an edge

Unknown:

and get to those humans faster and recruiting in a niche that

Unknown:

you have a passion for, it is a difference maker, and it sounds

Unknown:

like you have definitely found your people, too.

Jessica Gurley:

Thank you.

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About the Podcast

The Talent Trade
Presented by ThinkingAhead Executive Search
The Talent Trade is all about finding the right person, for the right opportunity, at the right time. But how exactly do you do that the "right" way? Executive Search Partner and Top Biller Stephanie Maas shares more than 25 years of experience about what it takes to be a top recruiter in today's "talent trade" market, using ThinkingAhead’s four-prong system focused on recruiting, business development, planning, and managing your mindset. It’s real, honest information about how to build your desk, perfect your niche, and stand out among the crowd in your search career.



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