Episode 30

Fail Faster

Published on: 3rd April, 2025

ThinkingAhead Recruiting Partner and Legal Practice Manager Brian Vogt dives into the psychology of recruiting, leads Stephanie in a couple of roleplays, considers what it might be like talking to your future boss, and explains how quicker failure leads to quicker success.

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Transcript
Stephanie Maas:

Hello and welcome to The Talent Trade.

Stephanie Maas:

This is your host, Stephanie Maas, Partner with ThinkingAhead

Stephanie Maas:

Executive Search, and today, I am super excited to have

Stephanie Maas:

probably one of the all time greats with us from

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ThinkingAhead, Brian Vogt. Brian was once again, our top

Stephanie Maas:

producer. Couple things I think everyone should know about

Stephanie Maas:

Brian, and help you, hopefully get excited to hear what he

Stephanie Maas:

wants to share with us today. Brian does this job the good old

Stephanie Maas:

fashioned way. He's incredibly well planned. He's very process

Stephanie Maas:

oriented. He's a phone guy, which is, I think, a little bit

Stephanie Maas:

of a novelty in his niche. He's diligent and consistent in his

Stephanie Maas:

work effort. It's no wonder he's been our top producer for

Stephanie Maas:

several years. The second thing I think you should know is Brian

Stephanie Maas:

is uniquely humble in his success and how he does what he

Stephanie Maas:

does. However, he has an alter ego named Brian that is not so

Stephanie Maas:

humble. So often we have to call on Brian to brag on Brian. Not

Stephanie Maas:

sure who we're going to get today, Brian, super excited to

Stephanie Maas:

have you here, and not sure which Brian we're getting, but

Stephanie Maas:

whoever is here, we're happy to have you.

Brian Vogt:

Thank you, Stephanie, appreciate that there

Brian Vogt:

was a couple things that I thought was important to chat

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about. One of the big things what I've learned about this

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over the years is a lot of the psychology associated with what

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we do, and one of the things that's always dumbfounded me has

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been trying to get to know what's really in the head of our

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candidates. What are they really thinking? It always seems to me

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like I never quite know what the real reason why they're open to

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making a change until we get late in the process. And so one

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of the things I've I've done is really changed how I ask

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questions to candidates and learning to ask indirect

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questions to them. Probably most recruiters do a good job of

Brian Vogt:

during debrief calls or even prep calls, of asking

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candidates. So tell me who you turn to when you make these

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kinds of big decisions, whether it's a significant other,

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whether it's a parent a friend, what I've learned to do over the

Brian Vogt:

years is ask, instead of directly asking them what they

Brian Vogt:

think of these things, it's asking them. So tell me that

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important person in your life that helps you make these

Brian Vogt:

decisions. What do they think of this opportunity? What are the

Brian Vogt:

things that they're saying? So Stephanie, I'm going to I'm

Brian Vogt:

going to ask you a question. If I were to ask you, tell me how I

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was going to actually ask, How would I describe you? But I

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don't want to do that to you. I think that would be kind of

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rough. But if I were to ask your children, how would they

Brian Vogt:

describe you as a mother, what do you think they would say?

Stephanie Maas:

Depending on the day, I think they would say I

Stephanie Maas:

was very silly. My silliness is probably a little bit annoying,

Stephanie Maas:

but I wear that like a badge of honor, because honestly, if

Stephanie Maas:

you're not annoying your kids, you're doing something wrong. I

Stephanie Maas:

think they would say I'm incredibly loving and would do

Stephanie Maas:

anything for them.

Brian Vogt:

No, that's great. I think that's awesome. But what

Brian Vogt:

just happened is, when I asked you that question, you stopped

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for a second and said, Okay, how would my kids respond? And we

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aren't going to put words in someone else's mouth, so we

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really have to think about, what would they say about this? And

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so that's been one of the things I've learned over the years is

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Hey, asking that indirect question, not directly, asking

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the candidate or even a client, what do they think of this

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individual? But actually asking, what is that important person in

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your life? What would they say about this opportunity? What

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would they say about these things? Another thing I thought

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was interesting I started, and I this is obviously something that

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I've heard over the years from other people. Is a good question

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to give to candidates if they're going through the interview

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process, is saying to them, if you're talking to your future

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boss or your future mentor, ask them this tough question. If I

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were to ask other people that have worked for you, how would

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they describe you as a mentor, as a boss, and you will get

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immediate, Frank answers to that question, because people don't

Brian Vogt:

want to put words in everybody else's mouth.

Stephanie Maas:

Let's do a role play on a debrief. I want to

Stephanie Maas:

know like, pretend you just sent me out on an interview, and

Stephanie Maas:

we're doing a debrief. I'm the candidate, you're the recruiter.

Stephanie Maas:

How exactly does that sound. And let's pretend you know who my

Stephanie Maas:

important person is. Let's use some very real information.

Brian Vogt:

Yeah, so usually, what I would ask you, Stephanie

Brian Vogt:

is, tell me about the the interview. You know, tell me

Brian Vogt:

about the types of questions you got from the interview, mainly

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kind of asking you, hey, what? What did they say to you? What

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kind of questions Did they ask you? And then I would. Also get

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into you know, did anything pop up that maybe concerns you

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during the process? Any Did they say anything, or did anything

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kind of strike you as odd or off, if I coached you properly,

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did you ask a clarifying question when something was off

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and then finally, did you guys discuss next steps in the

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process. Where do we go from there? Now, at this point, when

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I'm starting to wrap up the call, this is usually when I go,

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Hey, by the way, did you have a chance? I know you and I talked

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about that important person to your life, your your good

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friend, whatever. Tell me, you know, did you have a chance to

Brian Vogt:

discuss the interview with them? And what was their feedback?

Brian Vogt:

You'll notice, I never asked them, What do you think? I don't

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want them to tell me what they think. I want them to tell me

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what that important person of their life is, is providing

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information. Because typically, what we do is we turn to those

Brian Vogt:

in our lives that think the same way we do have the same goals

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and are good advisors for us. So a lot of times, the real meat

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and concerns will come forward during that discussion.

Stephanie Maas:

You know, it's so interesting because the other

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side of that too is those are the people that we trust. They

Stephanie Maas:

usually want what's best for us, and yet we can also heavily

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influence their support with our feedback to them. So in this

Stephanie Maas:

scenario, the behind the scenes, which is really what I think

Stephanie Maas:

you're unveiling here, is, you know, after the interview ends,

Stephanie Maas:

I'm going to call my brother and I'm going to say, Oh my gosh.

Stephanie Maas:

Let me tell you, I loved it. It was great. This and this and

Stephanie Maas:

this, and my brother's feedback is going to be, well, hey, this

Stephanie Maas:

sounds like a great opportunity for you. I'm really excited. And

Stephanie Maas:

then, therefore, he will give me his support because of what I

Stephanie Maas:

shared with him. He may ask some Hey, make sure you find about

Stephanie Maas:

this. Make sure you find out about that. But wow, this sounds

Stephanie Maas:

really great for you. So the key here, and I love this, is when

Stephanie Maas:

you ask, Hey, what does your spouse think? What does your

Stephanie Maas:

support person think? What is, you know, whatever, what you're

Stephanie Maas:

really asking is, what did you tell them? What therefore, is

Stephanie Maas:

their response? But then also, it sheds light on, if there is

Stephanie Maas:

hesitation or concern, it'll be reflected back by that person,

Stephanie Maas:

and then, you know, hey, this other person that's a major

Stephanie Maas:

influencer, and they're at big decision making is not on board.

Stephanie Maas:

If our major influencers in our life are not on board with the

Stephanie Maas:

decision we're going to make, we're rarely going to make that decision.

Brian Vogt:

Yeah, absolutely. I always find it interesting when

Brian Vogt:

suddenly they begin to mention things that we never discuss,

Brian Vogt:

right? Well, they mentioned I should be paid better. Oh,

Brian Vogt:

really. Well, you and I had discussed that pay wasn't a

Brian Vogt:

major issue. So, so now, why is this suddenly coming out, right?

Brian Vogt:

You know, mentorship is important. Well, I'm, I'm not

Brian Vogt:

sure if I'm getting that right? So that's always interesting,

Brian Vogt:

and we unveil those concerns, but we also get to talk about

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them, right? Because a lot of times, if you don't get these

Brian Vogt:

concerns out in the open, they fester, then they pop up later

Brian Vogt:

when an offer comes out, and suddenly you find out, well, I

Brian Vogt:

don't really want to accept this because of there's this

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lingering concern that I wasn't aware of. The only other thing I

Brian Vogt:

was going to bring up was the CEO of Nvidia was talking about,

Brian Vogt:

he was asked the question, you know, how do you coach people to

Brian Vogt:

become more successful? And he said something I thought was

Brian Vogt:

very profound. And he said, you know, he goes, what we find is

Brian Vogt:

everybody's going to make mistakes, everybody's going to

Brian Vogt:

fail. People are going to, you know, have to go through this

Brian Vogt:

process of learning, and failure is part of that problem. But

Brian Vogt:

what he said to people is, they've learned. We coach them

Brian Vogt:

to fail faster, the faster we can teach them to fail over and

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over again, the quicker they will suddenly realize, hey, I

Brian Vogt:

figured this out. Now I can get to the point of being

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successful. So if I could coach people that are new to this

Brian Vogt:

industry, I would just tell you, hey, faster you fail at this,

Brian Vogt:

the more mistakes you make. Don't look at it as a bad thing,

Brian Vogt:

look at it as a good thing. So you can learn to be successful.

Stephanie Maas:

I love that, and I do want to share with our

Stephanie Maas:

audience this mentality at work, and that's with you, Brian. When

Stephanie Maas:

Brian joined our firm, you know, we kind of put the standard of,

Stephanie Maas:

you know, you make 50 calls a day. Well, Brian's like, well, I

Stephanie Maas:

don't want to be the average first year producer. I'm going

Stephanie Maas:

to make more than 50 calls a day. You know, we set up a

Stephanie Maas:

Monday through Friday schedule of how to plan your day to get

Stephanie Maas:

the most out of your day. Brian said, Hey, that's not going to

Stephanie Maas:

cut it for me. My first year, I'm going to be committed to

Stephanie Maas:

working, you know, Sunday afternoons to get all my

Stephanie Maas:

sourcing and administrative work done. And it's not about being a

Stephanie Maas:

workaholic or being so dogged that you don't have a life

Stephanie Maas:

outside the job, but it's this exact idea I want to hurry up

Stephanie Maas:

and learn this business is absolutely fast as I can, which

Stephanie Maas:

means you're going to make mistakes along the way. But

Stephanie Maas:

this, the sooner you get those hurdles and speed bumps out of

Stephanie Maas:

the way, the sooner the road opens up. Sounds super novel at

Stephanie Maas:

the same time, because he set that example. He also trained

Stephanie Maas:

the top first year that three years ago, we had a 25 year

Stephanie Maas:

first year production record. She came in and broke that

Stephanie Maas:

record. It stood for 25 years, but it was again on this

Stephanie Maas:

mentality of, hey, do more sooner. Do more faster. So it's

Stephanie Maas:

not just a Hey. It's a great thing to think mentality. But

Stephanie Maas:

I'm a huge believer in you don't listen to what people say. You

Stephanie Maas:

watch what they do. And Brian at the time, you weren't saying,

Stephanie Maas:

Hey, I'm going to fail faster, but you did, and I think there's

Stephanie Maas:

a lot to be said for that, so kudos for you for setting that

Stephanie Maas:

example for us.

Brian Vogt:

I appreciate that. Yeah, and as a matter of fact,

Brian Vogt:

another person on the team this year came on the team just over

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a year ago and became a partner and and really just followed,

Brian Vogt:

followed what I did, work harder, work faster, and get to

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that point of of understanding this and becoming more

Brian Vogt:

successful. So it's definitely something that I will preach and

Brian Vogt:

believe in. And I think I don't know if I have the perfect

Brian Vogt:

method all the time, but I think what I do definitely works, and

Brian Vogt:

proof has been in the pudding on those around me on my team.

Stephanie Maas:

Absolutely. Fanastic.

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About the Podcast

The Talent Trade
Presented by ThinkingAhead Executive Search
The Talent Trade is all about finding the right person, for the right opportunity, at the right time. But how exactly do you do that the "right" way? Executive Search Partner and Top Biller Stephanie Maas shares more than 25 years of experience about what it takes to be a top recruiter in today's "talent trade" market, using ThinkingAhead’s four-prong system focused on recruiting, business development, planning, and managing your mindset. It’s real, honest information about how to build your desk, perfect your niche, and stand out among the crowd in your search career.



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